Russo Brothers: “I mean I think it’s distressing for anyone who is working on something for the better part of a decade, but then again, I think anyone would also understand that you can’t continue to play these characters forever. We’re not… Comics you can keep re-drawing the characters the same age for decades, right. We’re all aging. And there are new ideas and new stories to tell. Look at the incredible success of Black Panther. There’s a new direction that the Marvel universe needs to go and that’s about specifics where society is today and how audiences react and the storytelling that is not the same as it was a decade ago. I think they can make much more interesting choices moving forward, when we close the final page of this book.” (thanks @enchantedbyhiddles)
I’m also really bothered by the implication here that Loki is somehow passe and doesn’t fit into the stories people want to hear anymore. Which isn’t true, by the way, since about five thousand petitions to bring him back have been created and people have been begging for a Loki solo movie since 2011.
And I’m even more bothered by the way they’ve, intentionally or not, pitted Black Panther against Loki here, as if they’re saying, “We want more diverse stories, and Loki doesn’t fit that.” You know, as if we can’t somehow have BOTH. And, you know, as if a character who a whole lot of LGBTQ, women, and mentally ill fans love somehow doesn’t appeal to diversity. Like, that estimation of Loki’s Army is not just me projecting or guessing, either. A cursory look at his ginormous fanbase—which has only increased over seven years, by the way—will show that it crosses underrepresented and often unrepresented demographics.
And hell yes it would be new and interesting storytelling! Since when do comic book villains get movies (that aren’t hot messes like Suicide Squad, I mean)? Yes, yes, Loki is an antihero/antivillain now, but have these idiots seen Deadpool? Did they think the highest-grossing R-rated movie ever at the time it was released was a box office bomb or something? Audiences WANT more morally ambiguous protagonists! And they don’t have to be just an adult thing.
Like, fine. Give Loki something to do that isn’t family drama now that arc seems to have been concluded. Write him something to do that his Marvel incarnations haven’t done before. It’s not like we didn’t have an entire comic series called Agent of Asgard or anything.
And for goodness’s sake, don’t @ Tom Hiddleston with this ageism bullshit when half the cast is older than he is, or just as old, and you aren’t talking about killing their characters off or writing them out. Because 1) that makes no sense and 2) ties right into sexism when Loki has been made to look feminine and “pretty” instead of ruggedly handsome. I never thought a man would be hit by this kind of bullshit in 2018 when we’re finally having a conversation about how shit Hollywood is to women, but hey, I guess the Russos are equal opportunity like that. They sure are equal-opportunity fridging, anyway.
sorry, my hand slipped
I’ve had this heart-wrenching thought banging around in my brain for a few days now, and I’m sorry that I’m going to share it with you now.
If Loki’s IW death is real, I refuse to believe he was simply stupid enough to think he could attack Thanos with a dagger and win. If it was real, Loki wanted to die. This was just his latest suicide attempt, and this time it finally worked.
In the first Thor movie, he let go- thinking falling through the void would take his life. But he fell straight into Thanos’ hands. (And I’ve already mentioned how I believe Thanos may have killed Loki more than once while he was torturing Loki)
In Avenger’s, Loki provoked every single one of the Avengers in the way he knew would piss them off the most. Was he secretly trying to see if they could kill him? He did make the comment to Thor- “ The humans think us immortal- shall we test that?” Maybe he genuinely wanted to know.
Then in TTDW, during his talk with Odin, he says- “If I’m for the ax, then for mercy’s sake just swing it.” It’s almost as if he’s begging Odin to kill him rather than lock him in the dungeons with… Himself. Afterwards, Loki does “die,” and if you take the fact that he was avenging his mother out of the equation, that death was just as ridiculous as the one in IW. He sees Thor being beaten down by Kurse, and he runs straight over, impales Kurse and… Just stands there. It’s almost as if he’s ASKING Kurse to do what he did.
So if you think about it in these terms, his death in IW only had to be good enough to trick Thor into believing it wasn’t a suicide. He killed two birds with one stone. He gave his life for his brother and finally, finally found some peace.
I’m not saying I believe this. It’s just something my asshole brain has been hurting me with lately. Cry with me.
A Brief History of Arm Cutting in MCU
Thor: My brother once pretended to cut off my arm to stop me from using Mjolnir, a supposedly unstoppable and indestructible weapon. He also went for Thanos’s throat when he attacked him. So I’m going to stab Thanos in the chest because I want to look him in the eyes when life leaves his body and be dramatic. It’s not like the fate of half of the universe depends on it if I lose.
Tony: I had a built-in dagger in my suit which I used to cut off Mandarin’s arm when he was about to kill me. I also cut off Bucky’s metal arm by my arc reactor. So the genius plan for defeating Thanos is trying to pull of the gauntlet from his hand.
Avengers: Infinity War a.k.a the movie that reduced its characters’ intelligence just for the sake of the plot to have a guarantee that the audiance will show up for the second part. In other words, lazy writing for more money.
Loki: I’m a master sorcerer and my magical abilities include illusion manipulation, hypnosis, presence concealment, conjuration and telekinesis. I possess immense knowledge of and skill in wielding mystical artifacts and arcane lore. I have genius-level intellect and I’m a master manipulator. So I think it’s a good plan to attack Thanos with a tiny dagger. It’s not like I could overpower Odin with magic or sth.
If the audience would just say “fuck the second part” instead of coming back for more, maybe Marvel would learn a lesson. But I am not holding my breath…
I agree with all of this. Marvel writers really dropped the ball with IW.
Russos in the beginning talking about Loki in IW. “No More Resurrections” was intended to be fourth wall breaking, Loki’s dead dead, Tom was upset about Loki getting offed.
Thanks, guys. Thanks for like. Rubbing it in. I mean, I knew it already, but it just feels unnecessarily harsh to be like, “No, you Loki fans specifically SHOULD abandon all hope.”
Seriously the more I think about this the madder I get. The Russos just fundamentally Do Not Get It. They don’t get anything. They don’t get why Loki was a fan favorite (oh but his fans are mostly women so who cares amirite), they don’t get that Thor doesn’t NEED manpain to be a hero HE JUST FUCKING IS ONE ALREADY THANKS, they don’t get that the villain they made is disgusting, they don’t get that we care more about the characters than the plot, they basically just don’t get anything about what made people love these heroes in the first place.
And I’m still super salty about how that “no more resurrections” line was a very pointed and specific “fuck you.” Thanks, guys. Really. Thanks. I hadn’t quite gotten that yet. And to insult Hiddles on top of it, like he hasn’t killed it in every appearance as Loki and also spoken nothing but good words about his experience working with Marvel in like every interview.
Don’t even get me started on what kind of shitbags they must be IRL to think that Thanos’s “arc” made him “sympathetic.” All it does it try to legitimize abusers and it revolts me on a visceral level.
I agree with everything OP says, and with most of the stuff in the comments, however…..
I think we can all rant on the internet until the cows come home, or until the day we turn blue in the face. Marvel, Disney, the Russos, Feige and the like will give a flying fuck. And why should they, now that they’ve filled their satchels and wiped their hands on this franchise?
Seriously, we all knew what was going to happen to Loki. We all saw how Tom was being treated through the promo tour (and I daresay throughout the filming as well, and to me all this already started in Ragnarök, but don’t get me started). And yet every one of us who went and watched this….thing…in theaters basically rewarded Marvel’s ass by making IW’s the biggest opening weekend in the history of whatever. Of course they care shit about people’s opinions afterwards! Why should they? They already have our money, that’s what counts for them and nothing else.
And this is why, if we want them to take us seriously, we need to hit them where it really hurts. Instead of ranting away on the internet, rather don’t go and buy the Infinity War DVD. Don’t buy tickets for the next Avengers. Don’t go and see any Marvel or Russo Bros film ever again. Check for any involvement of Feige, or any of the writers, and don’t watch anything they’ve got their fingers in. Don’t buy any Marvel merchandise anymore. Don’t give them a dime’s worth of your money, and be vocal about it. Send them e-mails. “Hello, how nice you’ve got a new film out. I’m not going to see it because you treated fans and actors horribly last time and this is unacceptable.”
Send them this every.single.fucking.time, ten times a day. Post it on Twitter and tag the officials. Take it where they see it, and make it known. Make IW2 the biggest fail in Marvel history. Give them back what they gave us.
We are not only fans, we are consumers. We have the power, not they. It’s about time we show them.
I find it hysterical that Marvel expects me to invest in their next “phase” of characters after they just brutally killed off my most beloved character in a movie I’ve anticipated for ten years. Marvel can go fuck themselves.
Meaning that I won’t be watching another Marvel movie in theatres until Loki is brought back (as portrayed by Tom Hiddleston, no recasts or anything, because he shines as Loki) for more than just some flashback in Avengers 4.
I encourage others to join me.
UGH. I just listened to this podcast and am so not happy.
And also language because I am furious.
This is just further proof that the Russo Brothers had no idea what the fuck to do with Loki. Their excuses were aging, can’t play the same character forever, and that was pretty much it.
I’M SORRY. Is that not the same for every other actor from the first original movies??? Don’t be making some lame ass excuse about aging when the godfather of Marvel is 53. THAT’S RIGHT; Robert Downey Jr. is 16 years older than Tom, so don’t tell me aging is an issue. Gwyneth Paltrow is 45 and that character could have been written off years ago, just like Jane Foster and all the other girlfriend characters did. Loki is in all honesty, the most iconic film villain since Heath Ledger played The Joker, and if he were still alive today (RIP) I’m sure he could have continued his legacy of his character as Tom has done with Loki over the past 9 years.
Tom has given such dedication and depth to Loki that it is probably a part of him. I can’t imagine having to shut something off like that so abruptly and so flippantly without feeling some sadness and loss. I wish there was a way we could help him understand how mutually disappointed we all feel.
Secondly, Josh Horowitz is such a fan of Tom’s and you could tell he was really wanting the Russo‘s to address the issue with killing off Loki. He was very professional as an interviewer and host of the podcast, but you know he was just as shocked and disappointed to see the character treated that way. He made sure they talked about it in depth, not just skirted around the situation like they did in the movie. I’m sure Horowitz is having the same feels as we are. He has such a bromance with Tom and it is the cutest.
Anyway, there is no fucking way, Loki is coming back. This interview just really confirms it and I just don’t understand why they put so much effort and thought it to all the other characters, but not Loki. They even talked about how Scarlett Witch’s accent was changed because she was under cover. They talked about how Black Widow’s hair color changed because she was also under cover, and if they put that much thought into those little details, then why couldn’t they have given Loki just a shred more of dignity and respect. I understand having to kill a character off, but they obviously didn’t know what the fuck they were doing.
Back to feeling numb. What the fuck.
They like to talk shit right out of their asses! This is so just wrong! I can’t believe it.
I feel very naive. Infinty War started rolling along and I got so excited– they were finally giving me the Gamora arc I’d been waiting for! Her backstory! Her complicated emotions about her upbringing! Her desire to live but also her absolute willingness to die to protect the universe! Nebula! This is what I wanted.
And then we got to that scene on that cliff and I could just feel it all sinking in my gut
Because that whole time, they hadn’t been writing that arc for Gamora’s sake, they’d been writing it for Thanos.
And you know how you can tell? Beyond just that her end was to further his plot, beyond just that she was fridged at the bottom of a long fall for Thanos’s grief and Quill’s rage, it’s this–
The Soul Stone asks you to give up that you love most. If this scene was about Thanos then it reads like this: he did. He made that trade, sure-footed but heavy-hearted. It’s a scene intended to complicate him, to humanize him, and to show his utter devotion to his goal. It makes him a more comprehensible but also more powerful villain.
But if it was a scene about Gamora AND IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN, then it reads like this, and this is what proves it was never about her journey:
Gamora turned to her toxic, abusive father and told him no, this isn’t love, and the narrative murdered her to prove her wrong.
Avengers Infinity War BBC Interview:
Tom Hiddleston Talks about “The Tragedy of Loki” Scene
Int: And then Matt Damon, surely that must have been a pinch yourself…
Tom: It was very weird, yeah, very peculiar. Taika and I were both feeding him lines of things that I have said over the course of… And I was of course trying to give Matt really witty lines, like, “It would be fun if you said this because I said this in Avengers,” and Taika would just be like, “Nah,” and giving him much funnier things to say.
I don’t want to bring Loki back and let him fall into the wrong hands again. I wish that beautiful death scene in The Dark World was true with his last words “I didn’t do it for him.”
Translation: “I was trying to keep the character consistent and Waititi shat all over that again and again”.
Also I’d like to know WHY the heck Marvel and TW hate this amazing character so much. And why they try in every possible way to put him in bad light, demeanor him and cut him off so blatantly from plots.
They should be grateful to him and Tom for brought them fans and money.
TAIKA WAITITI IS FUNNIER THAN TOM HIDDLESTON JUST IN GENERAL AND THERE’S REALLY NOTHING Y’ALL CAN DO ABOUT IT
The comments on this is so fucking funny. Taika breathed new life into Loki. Y’all boring asses should be grateful.
Tom: Taika is funnier than me and all the other writers and directors I’ve played this character for.
Loki Stan’s: buhbuh he wasn’t a bland pretentious baddie for us to wet ourselves overrrrrrr.
I forgot about the smile after the snake story! You’re totally right, @sleepynegress. Best Loki scene.
This movie is the only time he actually seemed like an interesting, conflicted trickster instead of a greasy asshole.
@njadakas-grills @gaysunfire @vocifersaurus @sleepynegress @bana05 Sorry to break all your delusions. 😉👇
is this graph supposed to mean something to me?
The only thing I see is that a majority of Loki stans are only interested in seeing him reduced to a genocidal fascist Christian Gray wannabe
i think taika did a good job at writing canon loki.
no, not marvel.
i mean, Canon Loki
@note-a-bear @blad-the-inhaler I beg your pardon? In Avengers Loki’s goal was to rule the earth. How could he rule people if he killed them all? And you know what is genocide? Here is a living case: In the first Thor movie, angel baby Thor invaded another planet and slaughtered local residents only because they gave him a nickname, and he wouldn’t stop the massacre until Odin arrived and shouted him down.
And in TDW Loki was not a villain anymore. He was an anti-hero there, by saving Thor’s girlfriend almost at the cost of his own life, saving Thor at the cost of being impaled and revenging his mother’s death. Even Kevin Feige admitted Loki acquired the throne without betraying Thor, because Thor renounced it on his own account first.
Now I believe waititi stans have never watched the previous Marvel films but they pretend they have.
-“I feel so lucky with the writing, the way he’s been written. In Kenneth Branagh’s film the writing was very poignant, and you can see the vulnerability in him. Rather like Killmonger in a way, he doesn’t start out as an antagonist; he becomes an antagonist through the revelations. And then Joss Whedon wrote him as a very witty, very charming, very charismatic, and… So I’ve been quite fortunate with some beautifully complex writing of the character.”
-“The best thing about Loki is that if he is afraid he won’t show it. He’s been highly trained through the experience of his slightly traumatic life to shield his fear.”
-“Loki’s death on Svartalfheim was written as a death, and I would say Chris and I played that scene for real. That was meant to be that he redeemed himself, he helped save his brother, he helped save Jane Foster but that he, in the process, sacrificed himself.”
-When Loki stabbed Thor in the Avengers:
GAGNAROK and Waititi:
Waititi grossly misinterpreted and shat on the character that Hiddleston had painstakingly built; it’s a fact. If you need more evidence I have them. Some people need to learn the difference between character development and retcon. Other than the role of comic relief what did Gagnarok and Waititi give Loki?
To quote this article:
Waititi’s solution was a story in which Loki is mocked and emasculated in almost every scene. It’s very funny, and Hiddleston plays it without visible qualms, but it leaves the character nowhere else to go.
image credits: @whitedaydream
@yume-no-fantasy Thanks for these details! I’m just losing patience with these irrational waititi stans.
And speaking of misinterpretation, I happened to find one of waititi’s tweets:
Never doubt he’d always surprise us more.
The more I read his tweets/words, the more Taika Waititi seems the bully at my school who made my life a nightmare…
Which may be exactly why he appeals to bullies so much. He speaks their language.
So like, of all the things Waititi could pick on Loki for, he chooses to shit on him for being an orphan? What the fuck? That is EXACTLY what a bully would do. It isn’t funny, it’s incredibly mean-spirited. Kinda like making him joke about his attempted suicide.
What is hilarious to me, however, is Waititi trying to say that Loki only talks about himself and it’s annoying. Like… You do that more than anyone else, Taika. I’ve read interviews from you before, lmao. Don’t be a hypocrite.
Not to mention that in this case also his beloved buddy Thor is a space orphan too, not only Loki…
Anyway, Waititi has this behavior, quite gross and indelicate. The disrespectful way he tweets about Loki, the way he has answered to a girl asking for a Loki solo movie was so so rude.
He act exactly like bullies in my school, who mocked me for three years. I can’t read his words or see his behavior without cringe inside, in fear.
@lasimo74allmyworld I feel you I was bullied from 5th grade all the way to senior year and Waititi definitely speaks and behaves like my bullies did as well.
But I take solace in the fact that no matter what he did to try to tear Loki and Tom down, Tom is still here and celebrating the character he brought to life and being an amazing gentleman to all his fans ❤️
@lokisinsurrection this is the most important things!! No one could take him away from us, they can try in any way, put him down, dismiss him but thay can’t succede.
And Tom is the most precious gift we can have.
Ta*ka stans are pathetic