//This is important because it proves that The Other can hear everything Loki is saying based on some kind of telepathic connection that The Other is maintaining over the distance of whole dimensions. Which means it qualifies literally everything Loki says in Avengers Assemble to anyone else.
#yes#okay#loki is being monitored the entire time#which is why when people are always like#‘why didn’t he take thor’s offer?!’#i always wince#he’s on speakerphone so he fucking can’t (via opalescentnanomachines)
Y E P I WAS REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO THAT ACTUALLY.
#is that why he cried as he stabbed his brother though?
I would say so, yes. Loki is, for all intents and purposes, trapped on a one-way track. That’s why he tells Thor “it’s too late to stop it” instead of lecturing him on why it’s righteous. Loki being trapped in this one plan, this one course of action, that isn’t even provably his own – we don’t see one second of his conduct in this movie that isn’t under scrutiny by The Other and/or Thanos, so we never once see him acting without knowing he’s being watched, so this stretches back to before he even appears on Earth. We don’t know how far. We don’t know if he’s honestly been free to do anything at all of his own volition, except as he’s allowed a few self-aggrandizing moments in Germany, which he spends making justifications that almost sound like apologies, spouting philosophies that excuse what’s going on but which go contrary to everything his character was in ‘Thor’.
Loki has no other choice but to do what Thanos wants, and behave as Thanos expects him to behave, so the person he pushes away most aggressively is Thor – not just for all the obvious reasons, like jealousy and past grievances, but because Thor is a vulnerability for him who keeps tempting him, trying him, and making it harder every time he has to refuse that stupid, incomprehensible offer of forgiveness and amnesty. Stabbing Thor like that was an overt betrayal, where Loki had so far only done things he knew would inconvenience Thor at best, and I think it had a bigger impact for that reason.
It’s worth noting here that Loki is definitely also trying to keep Thanos from targeting Asgard, which giving over and siding with Thor would definitely cause. From the start, Loki hasn’t wanted war for Asgard, and he’s also fairly obviously terrified of Thanos. If he welched on the deal, to what lengths would Thanos go to retrieve the Tesseract without him, as well as seeking him and his allies out for vengeance? So it’s not just his own life at stake here, it’s a good deal more.
Getting tl;dr but yes. Yes, I think so.
[I find it disturbing that there are those about who actually believe that Loki being tortured does not at all/significantly influence what occurred, change what happened, or matter.
I feel that the true meaning of that word is lost, because it is simply a word on a page when it is read on a tumblr post, but if one truly thinks about the word torture, and considers the true, visceral things that it suggests, they would not brush it off so idly.]
I honestly don’t understand how anyone can watch this scene and think “oh yes, he’s totally 100% a villain with no heart and is pure evil.” or “He’s a villain, but Bucky is a victim.”
Like yeah, Bucky’s a victim, he was tortured, his mind was messed with – and you really think Loki didn’t go through much the same thing, only a million times worse?!?!?!?! You think Thanos and his minions were somehow less creative and effective in their torture methods than Hydra? Let’s face it, Hydra is made of human beings. Thanos is a titan with immeasurable powers at his disposal. Even with the enhancements of his body by the experiments done on him by Arnim Zola, Bucky’s still human. Loki is a Frost Giant, with stamina, healing, and constitution that is much higher than even an enhanced mortal’s – and not only is he a sorcerer, but he survived falling into the void, something that should have scattered his molecules across the cosmos. He can – and likely did – withstand tortures much more violent, much harsher, much more terrifying than what happened to Bucky.
I mean DAMN they even have a similar storyline – they both fall and then undergo torture. (Yes, Bucky was experimented on prior to his fall. Well, Loki had his ENTIRE EXISTENCE shattered before his fall.)
Joss’s storytelling is in fine form here, and I understand why he didn’t have a flashback sequence showing that torture, at least from a storytelling standpoint because a)it wasn’t strictly necessary to the plot, not with this scene (as well as the tag scene at the end of the Thor credits) to show that Loki had been tortured, and b)It likely would have earned the movie an R rating, which Marvel wouldn’t have allowed. But part of me wishes he had. Even just a tiny one, like the one with Gollum in The Lord of the Rings, that doesn’t show the torture directly, but shows the pain the character was in when he gave up the name Baggins to the orcs.
So like, how does that thought process even begin…and how does anyone not see that the safest place for Loki to be, when Thanos comes for him, is with the might of Asgard to protect him? How does anyone not see that Asgard won’t willingly protect Loki, the God of Lies and Mischief, the worthless adopted son that always lived in Thor’s shadow? How does anyone not see that, in Loki’s entire character arc so far, the only protection after the truth of his parentage came out was the protection he gained for himself? How does anyone not see that?
It boggles my mind.
I don’t. Because it isn’t Thanos’ MO. Or are you telling me he tortured Ronan, too? He finds people with ambitions he can use to manipulate them into doing his bidding. It is much more effective than torture–he doesn’t have to worry that something will happen to shake his programming, as obviously happened with Bucky is TWS, just that his minion will fail or double-cross him. And that is when his power comes into play.
There is a difference between torture beforehand and torture after-the-fact. Everything you’re quoting is to show what Thanos will do if Loki fucks him over, not what he did do to get Loki on his side. You’re conveniently leaving out the quotes where Loki shows outright insubordination to his supposed master. “I don’t threaten,” and, “Until I open the doors, until your force is mine to command, you are but words.” Not to mention the obvious deal between them. If Loki gets Thanos the Tesseract, Thanos will help Loki take Midgard. If he was controlling Loki through fear, he wouldn’t have to offer him a damned thing but a relatively pain-free life.
The safest place for Loki after he fails is indeed Asgard. I’m sure he knew that is where he would end up if he failed, counted on it even, but that he attacked earth solely to get there just doesn’t follow. Why take the long way around? His actions in the first Thor movie would warrant some punishment, but nothing like what he brought down on himself in Avengers. You seriously believe Asgard will marshal more forces to protect a prisoner who only narrowly escaped a death sentence than a Prince of the Realm, no matter how much he is disliked?
You’re honestly telling me that you think it was possible for writers to incorporate a torture scene into TWS, but not Avengers? That they could not have so much as alluded to it without getting an R rating? That Loki, a god who has lived for a millenia, would break in less than the span of one year when it took HYDRA much longer than that to break Bucky, a mere mortal?
The reason it isn’t in the movie isn’t because it’s unnecessary, but because it never happened.
We are talking about Thanos, right? The same Thanos that killed two entire races, save for the two young females (Gamora (whose family Thanos killed right in front of her) and Nebula) he raised through torture both physical and mental to become his assassin minions?
(And no, he hasn’t visited retribution on those who defied him in Guardians of the Galaxy. YET. Knowing it’s inevitable and waiting for it to descend on them is, after all, part of the mind fuck. Thanos has all the time in the universe, after all.)
Manipulation is actually less effective than torture, because as soon as the person doing the manipulation no longer has the thing of value being offered/the person being manipulated realizes that the manipulator either can’t or won’t give them what they want, then the deal’s off and, more than likely, the person being manipulated is going to turn on the manipulator. (See: too many movies and books and tv series to list. It’s a well-used trope for a reason.) Torture, on the other hand…it takes a lot to break through that. Bucky was trying to kill Steve from the moment he was given the assignment right up until Steve fell from the disintegrating helicarrier. And this was after Steve freed him from under the beam that was crushing him. It took a lot for Steve to break through Hydra’s programming and reach Bucky. He was willing to let BUCKY KILL HIM FOR FUCK’S SAKE. And if Steve hadn’t just orchestrated the demise of Hydra so that they couldn’t get their hands on Bucky again, all of that effort to reach him would have been in vain.
And who’s to say that Loki wanted to rule Midgard in the first place? I mean, of all the choices available to him, it makes no logical sense that such would be something he wanted. It would make more logical sense for Thanos to offer him the rule of Asgard/the entire nine realms (both for Loki and for Thanos’ own goal of obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet). And Loki’s resentment is towards Asgard and some of her people, not Midgard. Of course, the tesseract happens to be on Midgard. And it would make logical sense for Thanos to not want Loki to end up in Asgard, one of the realms most able to effectively oppose him and his plans. So Thanos needs to give Loki an incentive to go to Midgard instead. And since Loki wants revenge on Asgard more than he wants to rule Midgard, that incentive would be…torture, and the cessation of it.
You’re also forgetting the part where The Other said “You think you know pain?” Now, he could be referring to the pain Loki experienced when his entire existence was shattered/what happened during Thor, except for this inconvenient detail:
All of which show evidence of recent physical torture, and is what The Other was referring to. That’s not just the effects of traveling through the tesseract portal – look at the way his back gives out on him. Think about how his back continues to pain him throughout the rest of the movie. Look at his face, at the dark circles around his eyes, the sunken state of his cheeks, how much thinner and bonier he looks compared to how he looked in Thor. That is a person who has undergone torture. Pure and simple.
There’s also the fact that Thor traveled from Asgard to Midgard via Dark Energy – a force that is supposed to be rife with danger to those who use it, even worse than the effects of traveling via the tesseract – and arrived on the top of the quinjet looking pissed but still fresh as a daisy.
Think about Thor’s question to Loki on the cliff: “Who controls the would-be king?!”
Then there’s the fact that, as virgo-79 pointed out (and as I have pointed out before), Loki’s personality/demeanor changes after being hulk-smashed – the first time in the whole movie he sustains a blow to the head. I.E., cognitive recalibration.
There’s also the fact that Loki acts so blase’ about any torture Fury might inflict on him. “After. After whatever tortures Fury could concoct, you would appear as a friend. A balm.” That speaks to a)having experienced worse so whatever these “ants” can come up with holds no threat to him and b)being familiar with how torture works (i.e., bad cop/good cop).
As for Asgard, I find it difficult to believe that the realm who had to deal with the aftermath of the Bifrost being destroyed and the nine realms descending into chaos – and remember it was Loki’s actions that led to that – that lost soldiers in the ensuing battles as well as during the events in Thor, as well as what you have mentioned, his attack on Midgard – would protect Loki. And even before all of those events took place, before the first trip to Jotunheim, a servant laughed at him. (A deleted scene, but still, shows that even as a prince he wasn’t held in that high of a regard.) Thor likely would, but remember Sif and Volstagg both threatened to kill him. Frigga would have, but then she was killed. So how then is Loki going to be able to secure their protection? Through deception. (Here I’m talking about him sitting on the throne in the guise of Odin at the end of Thor:TDW.)
And yes, I believe that Thanos broke Loki in less than a year. That’s my entire fucking point when I say such scenes would have earned an R-rating, when I mentioned that Loki was of a higher constitution than even an enhanced Bucky. Think about how intense it had to have been. These are just educated guesses on my part, but I see it involving vivisection at the very least. Probably some kind of energy/seidr torture. Others have posited that, after finding out Loki’s Frost Giant lineage, Thanos tortured him with fire/burned him. Then there’s also the possibility of sexual torture of some kind. And, as I mentioned in the link above, warping of his mind via the mind gem in the sceptre. And honestly all of that probably does not even begin to scratch the surface of the sadism that Thanos, mad titan, courtier to Death, is capable of, never mind The Other. (There’s another reason for it to not be shown – for all of our imaginations, nothing we humans/the writers can come up with would match the sadism of Thanos.)
The torture scene in TWS happened as both part of the plot and as a way to advance it. The Winter Soldier was starting to remember being Bucky, so they had to wipe him. Even the mental flashbacks was part of that – they weren’t shown as some kind of motivation, they were shown because it was part of The Winter Soldier starting to remember. Physical manifestations of his surfacing memories.
They could have done something like that in Avengers, but as I said it was unnecessary to the plot/advancing the plot. The Other smacking a ball of searing energy into the side of Loki’s face was enough of a reminder to Loki of what had already been done to him and what awaited him if he failed. And that was just a reminder. A taste. I mean goddamn…
This was all very eloquently argued … and I’d like to add something I’ve always had in the back of my mind. Loki was obsessed with making Midgardians kneel … but who showed up on Earth kneeling?
This is a very subservient position. Who’s presence was he just in? Thanos.
Also, another point to bring up, Loki goes to conquer Midgard with the god damned Mind Stone. Based off what I’ve seen of Thanos, I don’t think he would just give away an infinity stone to a god whose title is “Mischief, Lies, and Chaos”. He would have to be pretty sure that however was in possession of one of the greatest powers in the friggin’ galaxy was well under his control before sending it away.
Not to mention, it’s the Mind Stone. There’s a huge possibility that Thanos could have used it’s power on Loki before sending him to Midgard and he was brought back with the skull crushing force of the Hulk. Like what was said above about cognitive calibration.
Exactly. Think about what that mind stone did when it created Ultron and what kind of thing it created … Loki was in possession of that. I believe he was possessed by it. His mind was not in the right frame of mind to be wielding it, having been tortured. Vision was created with JARVIS/Mjolnir … and you don’t get more “worthy” than mjolnir. That’s why Vision is A.I. Gandhi. Loki’s mind was gone when he had the gem, that’s why he acted so crazy throughout the movie. And the stark contrast in personality we got in The Dark World.
Also, the argument about Ronin being Thano’s M.O. I think Thanos picked Ronan because he was a much more malevolent being than Loki. He didn’t need to be tortured first. He didn’t want to be king of a realm, he wanted to DESTROY a realm. Thanos went in a different direction after Loki … he wouldn’t keep doing the same thing over and over again wanting the same results. And then Ronan turned on him. And so did both of his daughters that he tortured. That didn’t work out for him either.
Which is why we got the teaser at the end of Age of Ultron. Thanos being like, “Fine bitches, I’LL DO IT MYSELF.”
Wow, someone actually defending Thanos. And denying precisely what is on the screen.
*cocks head to the side*
How is this defending Thanos, or denying what is on the screen? I’m honestly curious.
Or are you referring to pyrebomb’s response?
Yes, pyrebomb’s response is what had me gobsmacked. Aside from the claim that torture isn’t Thanos’s M.O., that’s belied by the fact that Thanos’s henchman is torturing Loki right onscreen.
This only makes sense if pyrebomb meant that the movies weren’t a faithful adaptation of comic book Thanos, and by this point we all know that the movies aren’t going to be faithful to the comics except when they randomly feel like it.
About Asgard and Loki’s torture:
I’ve always been curious about Heimdall in regards to Loki being tortured. His whole purpose is to look for threats to Asgard. So either he saw Loki fall into Thanos’s hands and said/did nothing or when Loki let go of the staff he fell beyond Heimdall’s sight and he couldn’t see anything that happened to him.
Thor says of Loki “
He has an army, called the Chitauri. They’re not of Asgard or any world known.” How would they know what the name of the Chitauri was then? Did Heimdall see everything and only step in when an army was on the doorstep of a planet under Asgard’s protection? Or did Heimdall only see anything at all when Loki and the Chitauri got closer to Asgard?
If the second, was Loki like “Aw yiss, gonna have so much fun conquering Midgard with my Chitauri army.” *Looks around* “I SURE HOPE NO ONE HEARD ME ABOUT HOW MUCH FUN I’M GONNA HAVE F’ING UP MIDGARD WITH THE CHITAURI ARMY!”
Like for real, how did they know what the Chitauri were called?
Let’s talk about WHY Thanos would torture Loki:
Now Thanos is looking for the Infinity Stones. Presumably he had tracked the Tesseract to Asgard. He probably didn’t want to mess with them quite yet. Why start a war when you can wait a bit and gain strength enough to crush Asgard and its allies when you have more than 1 stone? The Mind Stone is impressive but not exactly conductive to conquering on it’s own. It would take to long to control enough people to conquer a world without a war that could pull in other worlds. That’s why he needed the Tesseract’s power. Loki must have been such a boon to him. He probably tortured Loki to find out information about the Tesseract, ask about the protections Asgard had around it and how to get into Asgard, what was it’s weaknesses, etc.
Did Thanos know that Asgard gave the Tessseract to Earth? In Captain America: First Avenger Hydra was fiddling with the Tesseract – creating weapons. Did Thanos somehow pick up on that? Or did Loki tell him where it was? (This also brings up the question of WHY Odin put such a valuable object on Earth. Did he suspect someone would come for it one day and put it on Midgard to keep Asgard safe? Cause screw Midgard and it’s insignificant goat people/)
Remember what the Other said at the end of Avengers: “Humans… They are not the cowering wretches we were promised.” Where would they have heard that from except from Loki?
So Thanos tortures Loki and Loki possibly gives up the location of the Tesseract because wtf does he care if Thanos wants to invade that world instead? He is emotionally messed up from the Jotun reveal before he was tortured but as much as he wanted acceptance and acknowledgement from Odin and Asgard, he’s not gonna sell them out to be invaded. He still wants to prove himself.
Earth though- the world with the woman who in 3 days helped Thor to grow up a bit when CENTURIES of Loki trying didn’t -yeah fuck that planet. Sort of. He didn’t want to harm Earth, he just didn’t care if he did as long as Asgard wasn’t harmed which is two very different things.
I personally believe that Loki threw the invasion (I will be making a post that includes all of this plus more shortly) – he had to know that Heimdall would see him and the Chitauri when they got close (if he ever didn’t have them in his sights) and thus Asgard, more importantly Thor, would find out. He knew Thanos and his quest for the stones would eventually be a threat to Asgard and after all, forewarned is forearmed. If he attacked Earth, he’d be back under Heimdall’s sight. It was his shot of getting away from Thanos. Loki was playing the long game.
So he endured torture beyond human comprehension as well as the Mind Stone (see my next paragraph) and walked the razor fine line between helping and hindering Thanos’s goals all to warn Asgard of a threat they knew nothing about. He played the bitter scorned Prince looking for revenge role to the hilt because he knew everyone would buy it – including Thanos.
As the Other said “You question HIM? He, who put the scepter in your hand, who gave you ancient knowledge and new purpose when you were cast out, defeated?” Sound similar at all to this: Selvig: “The Tesseract is showing me so much. It’s more than just knowledge, it’s… truth.” Loki: “I know.”
Yeah, he knows because he’s in the same boat buddy!